LUNCH AND LEARN: FROM AN ADOPTEE'S VIEW

[Bonni Goodwin] Have her join us, Angela Tucker. Um, and Angela, I will, we'll be doing lots of, lots of discussion about you, about your role um, and your story. Um, but I also wanted to open, open the table up with how anything specific that you would like to, um, introduce yourself with to this group.

[Angela Tucker] Sure. Hello, Oklahoma. I'm coming to you from Washington State, so I'm in the past a couple hours behind you. Um, I love speaking with professionals. Um, historically we've really centered adoptive parents in conversations about adoption. And I know that as an adoptee, it was on clear display about a decade ago when this documentary about my search for my birth parents came out. And that documentary is called 'Closure'. And it was really kind of home video footage that I wanted my husband to collect as I was not sure what I would find. But I knew I wanted to capture, you know, maybe the first and last time I ever saw my birth mother. And seemingly insignificant details too, like what kind of siding does my birth mom have on her house? Is her grass mowed, things that people may not think is important unless you've lived for me 26 years of not knowing where I came from. And so my husband filmed this, and then he had this budding interest in film. He was working in real estate, but he started developing more of an interest. And, um, if you've seen the film, you might notice that the camera gear got improved as the movie goes on. And that's because his, um, he this, he found this to be a hobby.
Anyways, long story short that the film surprised us by Netflix and Hulu and Amazon calling and wanting to have it, which was just a shock 'cause it was just home video footage. While we were doing the film festival circuit, I realized the adoptive parent centric nature of adoption in the sense that I would do a Q&A talk about adoption in my, through my perspective. 
And afterwards, all the adoptees in the crowd would come up to me and say, thank you so much for what you shared. This is oftentimes what is in my head, but I've never had confidence to say it out loud. And everybody else would flock to my adoptive parents and say things like, are you okay? Um, so like apologizing on my behalf. "I'm sorry that she's critical of the adoption industry." This is what led to the title of my book being 'You Should Be Grateful', um, that adoptees are really meant to kinda be silent. And, um, and so this is kind of my whole work, is that walking that tightrope of, I certainly have a great relationship with my adoptive parents. I'm grateful for that, and I wish I never had to be adopted. And being an adoptee is, is a complex thing. 
Um, so yeah, that's kind of the origin of all my work. Um, and I'm just excited to have a conversation with Bonni.

[Bonnie Goodwin]
Me too. Me too. Thank you, Angela. And just to, just to, uh, kind of come alongside some of the things that you just shared that I, I'm excited, um, to hear more of your story and hear, uh, talk more about, about your book, um, that just came out this year. Um, but I've already read it, um, maybe a couple times. Um, and, um, and what I'm excited about and what we've talked about quite a bit is how important it is to, to develop more, um, of those spaces for adoptees at any age, to be able to have conversations about what it feels like to be adopted and, um, because it is a lifelong impact. And I think you're right. I think oftentimes we are really focused in, in a positive way. We're focused on supporting parents, supporting the family, um, and, and that's needed. But, but not always do we think about the lifelong and the adoptee specifically. What does that feel like? So I'm really excited, and I know we'll talk more before we hop off today about some incredible opportunities. Angela's gonna join us in person in Oklahoma in September. We're gonna do several, several different, um, thing. We're, we're making our work as hard as we can in two days. Okay. Um, so we'll share lots of good details and information about that coming up before we hop off today as well. But, um, okay. So Angela, would you please, I do have some questions that I just wanna make sure to touch on, but I also hope that this is just a very organic conversation. I welcome everyone to put questions in the chat. I'll be looking at those as we're having this conversation and trying to pull in questions that you have as well. But I think it would be great for us to start, if you don't mind of just sharing with us your story. 

[Angela Tucker]
Yeah, let's just sum it up in a, in a sentence or two. I, um, um, uh, I was adopted from foster care out of the state of Tennessee, across the country to Washington state. Um, my biological mother, I know now, struggled with homelessness and, um, drug abuse. And my biological father never had the opportunity to know he had a child, had conceived a child. And so I was placed in foster care immediately from the hospital. And I had really awesome foster parents who loved me really well, something I'm so grateful for. Um, oftentimes we hear people say like, I could never become a foster parent because I would get too attached and I would hate to have to give them back or give them away. And when in fact, like that's the whole goal of being a foster parent. And my foster parents who loved me really well, I actually credit them for my ability to attach. And I have been married for 15 years, and I credit my foster parents for some of that. Um, they, I was incorrectly diagnosed with spastic quadriplegia, was told I would never walk. And that was part of what made it so hard for me to find an, for the agency to find an adoptive family for me. Um, but while they were looking, my foster parents did things like, uh, hours of kind of physical therapy on my legs in order to get my diaper on and off because my muscles were so, um, tight. And I think that physical touch and that length of time was the balm that my spirit needed after being separated from my biological mother, who I had grown in and known. And even if her actions weren't the healthiest, it's what I grew to love and know. And I think it's a, it's a trauma to be removed from that and a trauma that I've missed my entire life, um, up until I was 26, finding her. And that was just a joy. 
But it was also a joy to be reconnected with my foster parents, uh, in my mid twenties where I was shocked at how connected to them I felt. Um, we differ very widely in terms of our politics, our views, our religiosity, all of these things. My foster parents think have voted for Trump twice. And I will never, but, and I am sorry to get into politics, but I'm just wanting to, to share the point that when I saw my foster parents knowing our beliefs were so different, I was shocked at how I just couldn't get close enough to my foster mom. Like, I felt like I had known her so deeply and intimately, and I like, felt like I loved her. The feeling I had with my foster mom was one that I thought I would have with my birth mother, which is just like, I know you, I love you. And I think that goes back to that year in care when they, they cared for me so well. 
So being moved to Washington State occurred because my parents had already adopted seven other children all with disabilities. And so they were seen as a great fit to take another kid with disabilities. Didn't know my prognosis. Um, Bellingham Washington is a city up near the border near Vancouver, Canada, predominantly White city. I think they would describe themselves even when I was growing up in the nineties as like progressive kind of hippies. So a lot of, um, well-intentioned white folks. In my book, I say Bellingham is just a beautiful, idyllic place to live, but there were more Black Lives Matter signs than black people in our city. And so my blackness and my identity has, um, it's been, it's been tricky. Even though there were people of color in my family, it really wasn't reflected outside in my school and my neighborhood and that sort of thing. 
Um, so fast forward to today, I, this is what I do for work is I, I work really hard to center adoptees in conversations where otherwise we're kind of silenced or seen as perpetual children. You know, even uh, few months ago I was speaking for the American Bar Association and their Center for Children in the law. So all these attorneys and judges, and I was coined as the youth voice, and I am getting close to my forties. But there is a pervasive, uh, feeling that adoptees are perpetual children, that people will say, oh my gosh, you're an adopted child. How amazing. You know, and that, that need to kind of always have people, people often ask like, what do your parents think about what you do? And, um, yeah. So my book came out about actually last April, and yeah. Yes, it's been, and I'm thrilled that it's out there and, uh, helping further the conversation.

[Bonni Goodwin]
Absolutely. Wow. Angela, I, that is such an interesting concept of, of, I wonder what that. How did you respond whenever you were coined as the youth voice in this conversation?

[Angela Tucker]
My response is oftentimes, I think there's therapists here I saw, and social workers, so maybe I'm in good company. But it's often to reflect it back to others. You know, like, I might make a joke, like, "Oh my gosh, do you need to card me? Like, do you think I'm under 21?" You know? And people are like, "Oh, oh, wait. Yeah, no, I know you're an adult. I'm just, I'm glad that you can speak from the child's point of view." And again, I'm like, "Adoption is lifelong, you know? Right. I, yes, I was adopted as an infant, and I am still an adoptee today, and I'm gonna be speaking from my lens as an adult." So a little bit of pushback, reframing, trying to help people just like think about what they've said, because I think that's kind of the bottom line around adoption, is there just isn't a lot of time to think about what we're saying. 
When I do mentorship with adoptees, especially youth, one of the first things I talk to them about is like, "What is your definition of adoption? Can you define what does adoption mean?" And to hear kids grapple with it, even though they know they're adopted. They've heard the word forever, but they've never said the words like, "Oh, like I was taken from somebody and placed with strangers", or just trying to like, articulate this act. That alone is a worthy conversation to have, um, instead of the assumption that we know what we're all saying. And so that's where people, a lot of adoptees are like, oh gosh, I, I wanted to shield against this notion that adoption is trauma. I've heard that out in the interwebs, but it feels too strong. And I'm scared to say that word, but then, oh, now that I hear myself say it, like, wow, we don't even do that to puppies. You know, they get to stay with their, there's a process for weaning them away from their mother. Do that for humans. So I think that's like adoption education, adoptee centric education to me is so funny because it's really obvious stuff, but not until people have the courage to slow folks down and be like, let's listen to what we're, what we're saying, what we're doing.

[Bonni Goodwin] 
Gosh, I think that is so, such a, um, a good way to explain some of this process. And, and I was thinking of all the different, I've had the, the honor of being in several different conversations with you kind, not always just between you and I, but like hearing you speak into other, other people's perspectives and, you know, and, and also listening. So you've mentioned the book, which I swear that's so crazy that it's been over a year, Angela, like, I, it's flown so fast since the time I remember you announcing that it was, that it was out. But, um, so I apologize for my brain. But, um, so you've talked about the book, but you're also, um, a podcaster. And I've heard you have these conversations with adoptees from all different perspectives. And I've also heard you in other, um, other conversations as a speaker. And what I really appreciate about how you, um, enter into the conversation and also speak into the conversation always is, is from that you use humor, but you also are, you come alongside and you challenge all at the same time. And I think that is such an incredibly important way for us to come together in these conversations and, and, and, uh, be able to have growth on all sides where we, we really are truly learning together. Because I know we talk a lot in the, um, in the kind of mental health professional world about adoption, excuse me, adoption competency. And one of those aspects of that is, um, being aware of your own understanding of what adoption is, what it's always been, the history. Um, and there's, there's a lot, there's a lot to dig into there, learn about. And I know you go into some of that in your book, um, about the impact of the history and how we've done adoption in the past on today, and our understandings

[Angela Tucker]
So important. I, I really think it's important to have humility. And actually, you know, my book, the title, which is quote, 'You Should Be Grateful'. Um, you know, adoptees really quickly are like, oh my gosh, I hate it when people say that. I like, they get the title. But I also want, and am quick to point out, like I've said this before in different contexts, you know, like one reason that we all are so familiar with this phrase is because most of us have actually said it. It's not just, oh, I've heard everybody else say it. Like it's, it's actually important for us to turn the mirror on ourselves. And so when I think about even being honest with myself about having thoughts, like, I really should be grateful, it's, it's laden and the, the underbelly of that is the assumption and the issues of class and race. 
You know, the assumption that you went from rags to riches and maybe the truth that I did. And, but the truth, it's not just that, like, it's not, adoption doesn't happen in a vacuum. We all have single stories, but there is a reason why transracial adoption, for example, is predominantly white people adopting black and brown kids. It's not just happenstance. It has to do with our history. Why are white folks in a a different position? Why do white folks feel more entitled to want to adopt kids of color? I've interviewed black middle class and middle to upper class black parents or black folks who want to become parents and said, "Would you adopt white folks? Would you adopt a white kid?" And their response is usually like, "No, why would I do that? I don't know anything about whiteness white culture." I'm not, you know, but for white people, it's like, "Oh, of course I would absolutely love to have a black any child." And so thinking about like, why do those responses happen require us to think about our history. Um, people don't often think about America is actually a sending country too. We think like we adopt from Ethiopia, Haiti, Ethiopia is closed to us now for important reasons. But, um, there are black women who are voluntarily choosing adoption and choosing to not place their child in America because of, they don't want their kids to grow up here. So we forget, and I think that's this, we can't talk about adoption, specifically transracial adoption without understanding the founding of our country. 
And when people say, you know, you should be grateful, sometimes those people don't even know what they're articulating. You know, they certainly don't know my birth parents, my birth family, but the assumption that it was bad and, and that I was rescued from something terrible is thick. And where does that assumption comes from? There's like, there's truth to it. So that's where I feel like humility is really important. It's not, it's not a vengeance, um, typically, um. And for all the people here, you know, it's, uh, it's your duty when you're working with adoptive parents that they aren't adopting without understanding all of this. Those, those conversations are your responsibility to, to have. So using what I said you could say to white couple, like, "Why do you think they couldn't stay in their community? Why do you think they couldn't stay with their biological family?" And if someone says like, "Oh, because their birth parents were drug addicts", what, why, "Why are their birth parents struggling with drugs?" And go back to like, oh, generationally, like their birth parents, parents struggled with poverty. Oh, their grandparents were impoverished. Okay, now we're at the Jim Crow era. They weren't allowed to be in this section of town. You know, like, make sure that parents understand how they got to that position today. So they can't just say like, "Oh, I'm so lucky I got to adopt you." That's not okay. 

[Bonni Goodwin] 
Right, Right. So I would, I appreciate so much your, um, like being able, like you said, summing up in one sentence, your story, which I know is impossible. Um, and there's so much to it. And, and I encourage everyone to, uh, beautiful. The, the reason, one of the reasons that, um, Angela's book is so beautifully written is because it weaves together some of her story and her experience with other aspects of like what we were just talking about, important concepts, important things to think about as professionals as as, um, parents, you know, families. And so I would love to ask you, Angela, and give you an opportunity to share, um, what, why, how, how did you come to the decision that you are going to share your story, um, with the world and, and open yourself up that way?

[Angela Tucker]
I was surprised with, back to the, the debut of the documentary. I was surprised at the number of adoptees who felt muzzled. Um, who felt like they couldn't say simple, relatively simple things. Like, "I miss my birth mom." "I wish I knew my birth mom." I, without their adoptive parents breaking down in tears and feeling totally offended and like insulted like we were saying they were bad parents. I didn't grow up like that. And one reason I didn't grow up like that is 'cause my parents, I think one of the big reasons is because of the motivation my parents had to adopt. So another thing I think it's so important to excavate with adoptees is that they know that. 
And so my parents, they were, as I stated before, Bellingham was kind of a hippie city, small city. Um, they were part of the zero population growth movement. So they felt like, like it's almost anti-natalism. They felt like we were procreating at a rate that outpaced our resources. So this is back in the seventies. And so they had one biological child, and my dad talks about in the movie, he says, and "I, um, got a vasectomy and we just weren't gonna do that anymore." Um, because of that, I think they, that seemed to lend towards them not having a very strong sense of, um, like ownership of us. So they were very aware, like all of us came from other places, and they were often kind of curious, like, who did you come from? Where did this personality come from? Why are you so athletic? Like, so that was my upbringing for all of our, my siblings as opposed to so many of the adoptees who I were meeting where their adoptive parents adopted because of infertility. And so therefore, if their parents didn't grieve that, then the adoptee was really feeling that sense that the, the adoptive parents had, like, we wish that we could mold you into exactly what we really wanted, which was a biological child that would be just like us, and you're not acting like us. And that's a problem. Even if it was really subliminal, it was just the opposite of what I grew up with. 
It was, um, I talk in my book about my ghost kingdom, which is a term, uh, coined by Betty Jean Lifton, I believe. Um, and essentially it's like, well, in adoptee, adoptee land. It's me fantasizing about who my birth parents were. So Brandy from Cinderella was my birth mother, because I remember, remember, remember that movie? 

[Bonni Goodwin]
Yeah. 

[Angela Tucker]
It was groundbreaking. I was like, that's her, she gave birth to me. And then Magic Johnson Basketball player, big smile. He was my birth dad. Yes. And the Ghost kingdom. It's, it's, um, it's not a nefarious place to be, you know, it's like all of us. Maybe you dated somebody in high school and sometimes you wonder like, what would life be like if I married that person? Or what would life be like if I went to that college? Like, that's all. Okay. It's not a bad thing to do that. 

[Bonni Goodwin] 
Right.
 
[Angela Tucker]
Um, so in my family, even though my parents would say like, we're pretty sure Magic Johnson is not your birth dad, but we can totally see why you would think that that conversation just I learned, I've learned in the last decade just hasn't, wasn't happening in other adoptees homes. And that's tragic. And so I, that really was the precursor for me, recognizing that my story is not that unique. But if I, what is unique is that I have parents that aren't offended by what I'm saying. And since that seems to be unique, let me share for the good of adoptees, understanding that our stories matter. That that one in four adoptees who seek therapy are thinking about suicide. You know, it's not because they don't have adoptive parents who neglected them. Many of those adoptees had good adoptive parents, but they weren't able to ever integrate their, their adoptee sense into their lives. And that's, um, that is a unique cruelty. 

[Bonni Goodwin]
Yeah, For sure. I'm, man, I'm, I'm thinking that's the, that's another, uh, wonderful opportunity, um, that I've been able to, to just, um, come alongside a little bit here and there. Um, but is your, your nonprofit, the Adoptee Mentoring Society, um, that offers incredible opportunities to connect with Angela and other adoptees who are trained to, to support adoptees as they are exploring some of this, and the impact of what the experience of adoption, um, some of those messages that have come and even whether explicitly or implicitly the subliminal kind of messaging, um, that our adoptees carry with them. So the, uh, the Adoptee Mentoring Society offers one-on-one mentoring virtually for kids all the way down to age 12. And then for the rest of life after that. And there's, um, group settings where you can come in and listen and share, um, just some incredible, uh, incredible stuff through the Adoptee Mentoring Society. And that makes me think, I, I would love Angela for you to share anything else you want to about that program, about that, um, agency, but also, um, ask you the question along with that of what, especially for any adoptees that we might have on this call, what are some, I know again, this is like say it in a short sentence, which a whole lot, but, but what are some of the hopes and and wishes that you have for adoptees? What are, what are you hoping to support them?

[Angela Tucker]
Well, first of all, I just wanna thank those of you who have your cameras on, especially the, the Adopted Chameleon, which do I do? I know you from the internet. Yeah. Yay. Well, and then for everybody else who is on camera, I just love being able to see your face and your interactivity. Anyone else that wants to come on camera, I'll be so delighted. 'cause it's nice to not feel like you're talking to a black hole.

[Bonni Goodwin]
Um, true.

[Angela Tucker]
But yeah, the Adaptive Mentoring Society has been a, a dream because folks, it, it's hard to articulate the incredible profundity of being with other adoptees. Um, therapy is so important and having adoption adoption competent therapists is huge. But being in a space where you don't feel any pressure to defend your adoptive parents, it really allows for conversations that otherwise couldn't happen. So the Adoptee Mentoring Society is not therapy. Um, we are not fixing, we are not diagnosing. There is, you know, I don't like to pathologize adoptees, but just being in spaces together is so profound. Being, hearing someone else say the things that you have thought but never said aloud, or, there's so many adoptees who had never heard of really important texts, like 'The Primal Wound', or words like code switching or, um, a adult adoptees who never knew the language transracial adoption. Even they, though they are one adoptees who'd not heard the word adoptee, just had always said, I'm an adopted kid. You know, like, those are life changing. And that's what the adoptee, Adoptee Lounge is what we call our group setting. That's, that's partly what it does. Um, but I think it also, what I'm proud of is that I think it helps adoptees move forward to get support if needed. 
Like in therapy, they could find a thera like know what they're looking for in a therapist, for example, for so many black transracial adoptees, having a white therapist is hard. Not because a white therapist isn't skilled, but because white therapists might really represent our adoptive moms in ways that you, you, I'll say you as a white therapist, if that's, you cannot simply just overcome. I had a white therapist for a decade, um, that I thought was really helpful to me. But one of the reasons she was helpful was because she helped me understand that for a long time. She would say to me like, "You're really smiley right now, and we're not talking about happy things you do. You think you're trying to protect me?" And I was like, "I don't think so." And she was helping me see the ways that I was really thinking of her as my mom and, and trying to like, ease things. And so now I have a black transracial adoptee therapist, and I'm really happy about that. But I think for the Adoptee Mentoring Society, helping all of us recognize like, what exactly we need, instead of just like, 'I'm adopted. Things feel off. I don't know why I'm here.' And hoping that a therapist can help us, which they usually can't. Um, I, I'm proud that AMS Adoptee Mentoring Society can help us narrow in, you know, maybe it's like, I'm gonna seek a reunion, but I wanna make sure my boundaries are in check. You know, that's, I'm so thrilled if an adoptee says I'm gonna do therapy, and I know that's my goal, as opposed to just like, kind of, I don't know what's wrong. So helping narrow in and hone in on the, it is really exciting for me.

[Bonni Goodwin]
I love that. That's so good. That, so speaking of, um, adoptees potentially on this call, um, let's shift it a little bit to, I know we see in the chat, we have quite a few parents on here. Um, what do you think are some of the, the most important things that you would like to share with parents? Um, 

[Angela Tucker]
Yeah. Um, let me take that twofold. I wanna speak with one regard to race and then one non-race related. Race related, I think there's so many white transracial adoptive parents who are really well intentioned, and they'll say things like, you know, "I tell my child that they're beautiful all the time. I just don't know why they want to like, straighten their hair or have a wig or a weave that's like Eurocentric beauty standards. I just, I tell them, I, they, I love their afro and, and they think that's enough." And I want white adoptive parents to know that's not enough. Like, you actually need to move to a, a different place where we can see ourselves reflected so that society is telling us you're beautiful. Because if in our house we hear that from you, but then we go outside and we're hit with all these microaggressions, like, your love is not gonna outweigh that, unfortunately. Like, you can keep on telling us, you think you're beautiful. But I think it was Lupita Nyong'o who gave this incredible speech. She's not an adoptee, but she gave the speech 'cause she's, um, really dark skinned. And in Hollywood being really dark skinned is not cute. Unfortunately. Like in America, we like our black women bright skinned, we like them. Beyonce, Rihanna, like, so Lupita have has parents who love her and told her that. But in her speech, she was like, I didn't believe it until she saw this dark South Sudanese model hit the global stage. And that's when she's like, "Oh, okay, maybe I can do this. Maybe I can succeed in Hollywood." So I think it's kind of the same message, like, um, also, we can't believe something to be true. That you love us, that you love our people, that you're not colorblind. If you don't have any friends that look like us, like any people that are coming in and out of our house all the time, then your message isn't, isn't gonna stick. So I think those are really important things. It's like almost needing to outsource some parenting duties to people who look like us. It's kind of harsh. I know adoptive parents don't love that because you wanna be everything for your kid. But I think, like, I think about something less, maybe another example is I love reading. I've always loved reading. And my mom, she told me this story that one time she was like, "Angela, I think you'll love this book. Um, it's called such and such." And I'm like, "Cool mom, thanks." And I, I must've been in middle school and somehow I came across a black woman who said, I think you might love this book. Same book. And I ran home to my mom and I was like, "Mom, oh my gosh, I just learned about this book. You've gotta get it for me." And my mom had told me about it. So it's this idea of like racial mirroring. And for me, seeing a another person who looked like me say that held more weight. Unfortunately. But that's the reality.
Um, so the message to same race adoptive parents, um, is, is probably just again, that importance of adoptee spaces for adoptees to have other adoptee friends, um, from same race adoptees. Like I'm thinking of Steve Inskeep, he's the, the host of NPR Morning Edition. You probably know his voice. He's an adoptee. And one time we were chatting and he said something like, Angela, I'm, I'm kind of jealous of you because you were transracial. You had a really easy way to talk about adoption and race. And I didn't. Uh, and he was not minimizing the complexity of being black in a white family, but he was simply saying, "There wasn't like an obvious easy entry for me growing up to talk about this. And I always wanted to because I felt different and all these same issues." And I thought that was really profound and important. And that to me, speaks to the importance of white adoptive parents. Also, making sure that the adoptee has adoptee centric spaces to talk about this. Um, for white and same race adoptees. It's, I hear that it can be, the race conversation in America is so big and so fire fiery that some same race adoptees want to just take a, a step back and be like, I'm not gonna crowd this space. When in reality they're dealing with the same stuff and need the same support. Um, and it sometimes it's even worse. The microaggressions are like, oh my gosh, didn't know you were adopted. You look just like your family. And for a white adoptee like you, you don't want that. Like, "I don't look like them. I am not them." But it's hard to, to say that sometimes. 

[Bonni Goodwin]
Hmm. So how I know this is, I don't, this is a big question, but what is that space? So like, if, if an adoptee doesn't want to hear that, what, what is kind of the most, um, open and maybe appropriate and most helpful Yeah. Way to talk to, to adoptees about being a part of their family and identity and all the things.

[Angela Tucker]
What I think is so beautiful are, are folks that can s say like, "Oh my gosh, you're adopted, huh? I wonder how your birth mom has handled that." Hmm. For someone to say that instead of like, "Oh my gosh, you're adopted. How awesome your parents are." Great. Um, that's mind blowing. It's the, again, it's a little bit simple, but it's like if, if non-ad adoptees can can think and can push back against the status quo for two seconds, we will feel more seen. Adoption is loss. So let's, let's talk about that, that that birth family side that is ever present, but uh, invisible at the same time. I think that's a great place to start. Um, the ambiguous loss concept is one that I talk about in my book, which ambiguous loss means that it's, uh, well, it can be two things. It can be someone that is physically present but psychologically absent. So some people grow up with, you know, somebody who's there, but they're not like tuned into you or for adoptees, someone who's psychologically present, but physically absent. And that's our people. So what I think is helpful is the people who identify that and know that in stating that we aren't, you're not also saying your adoptive parents are bad or anything like that. It's just the truth. And man, it would be cool if adoptees heard that

[Bonni Goodwin]
It's, it feels like to me, um, the adopt the adoptee as being a part of the adoptive family already know, right? 

[Angela Tucker]
Yes. 

[Bonni Goodwin]
Adoptive parents. I mean, hopefully as you've shared in your own story, they're wonderful. I know they're wonderful. I have a good relationship with them. 

[Angela Tucker]
Yeah. 

[Bonni Goodwin]
You don't need to continue to tell me that, but what I hold, and I'm not saying me, I'm not an adoptee, but I'm just saying if I've heard other adoptees share just from that perspective, that, um, there's more that I hold in my mind and in my experience 

[Angela Tucker]
Yeah. 

[Bonni Goodwin]
And having anybody reflect that I see that, I recognize that there might be more there for you. Um, it's like, to me it just seems like it would be such a big breath of fresh air of like, ah, I don't have to, I don't have to hold all that on my own and even hide it. 

[Angela Tucker]
Yeah. 

[Bonni Goodwin]
Because I feel Right. Like there's this sense of having to hide some of that because not because people don't either don't think about it or possibly think of it in a really negative way, and that's just not helpful.

[Angela Tucker]
Yeah. I mean, I think Georgia Tan, she's the woman who in, um, 1940 did the book. 'The Baby Thief' is about this woman Georgia Tan, who I think is like the most brilliant marketer ever. She, she created adoption. She stole homeless women's babies and sent them to, uh, rich Hollywood women. So like the book 'Mommy Dearest', um, Joan Crawford, she's one of these people who got a baby from Georgia Tan. And, uh, Cindy Crawford is one of the adoptees. Um, anyways, I think people don't recognize that there's this grand marketing around adoption of moving sadness to goodness. 
Um, we did this with the Orphan Trains, you know, where we would put homeless kids on a train from the north from New England, and they would go all the way to the Midwest. And, and it's like, un it's, again, it's our history informs the stereotypes that we have today. Uh, but many people don't know that. And so that's why we think of birth parents as like a cuss word. Don't mention them, they're bad. 
Um, our history around the Baby Scoop era, which is in the fifties and sixties when we sent women away to that was Laura. Yeah. When we sent women away away to give birth and to then reintegrate with their family as though nothing ever happened. The great shame, the great secret like that is still pervasive in many people's thoughts about what adoption is, when in reality, where is the support for birth, birth parents. 
You know, um, in my book, I like to use the words of some of my young mentees who feel comfortable enough to say to me things like, "Wait, I just learned that my parents paid $30,000 to adopt me, but why couldn't some of that money gone to my birth family? Would they have been able to keep me?" You know? And that's like a 12-year-old talking, and it's just a innocent and honest thought that many adults are shying away from. Why don't we try to preserve families? Um, yeah.

[Bonni Goodwin]
Yeah. We have, we have some, uh, some good comments and questions popping up in chat. So I'm gonna pull over, um, Deanne shared "As an adoptive parent, um, who has a relationship with my son's bio parents, it's de difficult for mom to deal with not having her son. And allowing them to be able to have a relationship is a blessing for her. So sharing, you know, kind of, uh, our little boy Tell every, tells everyone, uh, she has two, he has two moms." And then Christie above that says, asks the question kind of about that similar thing of having an open relationship. "How would this space be created when we have a connection with bio parents and family? And would having an open and honest space for conversations be a start?"

[Angela Tucker]
Oh gosh. When is it not a good start to have open and honest conversations? You know, I do think openness and adoption is, is tricky. Partially because again, the birth family, the first family really doesn't get any education around this. So oftentimes the, in current adoptions, the adoptive parents are being prescribed openness and saying, this is best for an adoptee's health and identity as if they grow up knowing their people and seeing them even, or texting them or sending a photo to them, or drawing artwork for them, or FaceTiming. But the birth parents aren't getting that same message. So sometimes the adoptive parents are like, "Yes, I'm in it. Let's do it. Let's text your birth parents, let's you, you adoptee refer to them as your other mom or mama, or something like that." But when the birth parents aren't getting the same education, they might be confused, like, "Why do you wanna be in a relationship with me?" Especially when birth parents are already oppressed to start with. "So do you want something from me?" Like, what am I, and that is also why the next great frontier needs to be us understanding a birth parent's plight, um, and then doing that same education. 
So yes, Christie, um, open and honest conversations are important, but educating others is as important, unfortunately, in talking about why this is best for the adoptee. Yes, birth ma birth mom might be in prison for a crime. We still want a relationship. We wanna come see you in prison. You know, we want, we need that. And, but explaining the why, and that's honestly why I love to share my story, why I have my podcast, why I like to amplify other people's adoptees stories is because typically when an adoptive parent keeps those doors open for the adoptee to know their birth parents, then the adoptee feels like they have a sense of control. It doesn't mean that the most beautiful relationship is gonna happen, but it means that an adoptee, whenever they're ready, they can say like, "You know, I actually don't want to go to prison and see my birth mom right now." And that's like beautiful. What we want is for people to feel in control, to have that open access, not for adoptive parents to be the gatekeepers. That's not your job. 

[Bonni Goodwin]
I love that. Thank you. We have another question, um, in the chat. Above that, "We have foster children who are of a different race and culture, and the plan is for us to adopt, is very clear from this conversation that I have to take a step back and consider how this will impact them. So how can I show up differently to support them through this?", that whole 

[Angela Tucker]
Yeah. Well, I did a podcast with a gal, gosh, I'm gonna forget her name. She's in LA She focuses on foster care, but they were in a similar situation. She is a white woman, her husband is a white guy, and they had a black boy in their care that they were fostering. But the plan went to adoption. And they too recognize like, "We don't have a black community around us. Like, we would love to love on this boy and care for him, but I don't think we need to do that through becoming his legal parents." And so they advocated to the agency like, "We will have him here as long as it takes for you guys to find a black family for him." And they did that. And I love that. And this, this couple is still in this boy's life, which is so cool. Yeah. 'cause it's not to say that they can't love him, but they knew they couldn't do everything. I mean, it was similar to like how my parents, we had a house that had so much, uh, accessibility for all the disabilities in my family. You know, my sister with cerebral palsy can't walk. So all the stairs had, um, like lifts and, and it was just, they knew that they could not only love us, those of my siblings with different disabilities, but they had the tools to care for us. And I would say outside of race, for me, being not raised in my, my culture at all, but in that way of physical disabilities. So I think it's not too dissimilar from that. So I think it w it weighs on white adoptive parents' conscience when they don't do everything they can do to advocate for the best home. So if you do that and just say, you know, "We think it's really important that this child grow up closer to their roots" or however you wanna word it, and I can help you with that. I do a lot of consulting around this. Um, if you don't do that, even if you're met with the social worker being like, "We can't find any", which is another issue, but at least you've advocated and you can tell your child like, we tried with confidence. That's really, that's really important. Um, and then also, yeah, there are things that if you do end up adopting the child of color, there are things like, I've talked about finding a community of color for the child, which I know a lot of white people are like, "Oh gosh, it's just so hard. How do I find people of color?" And it's like, well, that's a problem. Yeah. Um, again, no judgment, but to think about your world without people of color up until now, like honestly kind of sad. Um, diversity is so enriching. And, um, so there are those steps you can take. And then, you know, like I'm trying to create different programs and things for adoptees to be connected across no matter where they are in the world, which is helpful too. 

[Bonni Goodwin]
Right, Right.

[Angela Tucker]
Uh, there are different camps too that are, I think are important for adoptive parents to know about. Like, Packed Camp, which occurs on both the East coast and the West coast in the summer is a transracial adoptive family camp. So adoptees their parents, it's week long, usually in like a ski resort, you know, so in the summer, 

[Bonni Goodwin]
nice.

[Angela Tucker]
They don't do anything. So the kids get to do all the camp stuff, but then the parents get education. So I do a lot of teaching at those kinds of camps. And then all the counselors are usually either people of color or people of color and adoptees. Um, those camps are really awesome for adoptees, for reasons. Like, um, my heart swells when the kids are just playing around playing soccer. Someone gets hurt, they call out to their mom and a white person comes over and none of their, none of the other campers are like, "Wait, what? That's your mom?" Like, everyone's just like, you know, get the bandaid, let's keep playing, keep on pushing, you know, and it's just so neat to feel like, oh, I'm with others. And that's a great way to connect with other families and all that stuff. So those are good options too, 

[Bonni Goodwin]
Man. We, we have covered so many different books and, and supports and resources and really amazing things. So I do want to just tell everybody, Hey, if you, if you're wanting to, um, you know, get some good resources, get some good information, first of all, I wanna direct you to Angela's website. Um, there's the Adoptee Mentoring Society website, but then also you have your own, that is angelatucker.com, right?

[Angela Tucker]
Yes. Yeah. My, for-profit consulting firm, The Adopted Life where I consult with media, you know, I had the privilege of helping with, uh, season five of NBC's show, 'This Is Us'. And that was really exciting to try to, again, help like society see adoptees in a different way. So I loved helping write Randall's character. Um, but then I do consulting with agencies and individuals and families. Um, I have this thing called the Adoptee Manifesto, which I will make sure you're given a, um, discount to buy. But it's, um, it's just something I wrote and I tried to make it cute, design it so that people can put it on their wall. And it basically says different adoptee statements. Like, 'We can love more than one set of parents'. 'We have the right to own our original birth certificate' and different statements that are true for us. But the reason I love for people to purchase it is because it's a great conversation starter about adoptee centric stuff. Um, it gives people permission to say like, "Wait, you know, what does this word mean?" Or just invites conversation. So that will be available to you. And then my podcast is on the website, which I interview adoptees and all their stories differ. And my hope there is that we don't fall into the trap of thinking that there's one single story for adoptees, but that they vary. We want different things, and that's valid. And, um, yeah, so angelatucker.com and Sierra did put the manifesto in the chat. Thank you. Um, yeah, 

[Bonni Goodwin]
Yeah. Real, real quick, the podcast is, is phenomenal, because again, Angela, you have enc encouraged, um, those that you are inviting to have the conversation and sharing their story. They, they have different views, different perspectives, and, and just having the opportunity and the platform to be able to, like, even I've listened to one where the adoptee has a different perspective on something than, than you, and you guys are like kind of just processing it together and, and digging into it, you know, and, and it's so, like, like you said, diversity is so enriching. Um, just being able to be humble and listen and, and open yourself up to, um, hearing that perspective from that adoptee's story and their journey. 

[Angela Tucker]
Yeah. Yeah. I think one of 'em was Maya Holmes, who, I love this podcast because I had operated kind of under the assumption that kinda same race would be better, or would my life be better if I had black adoptive parents? And so I had this black adoptee who had black adoptive parents and was like, no, it's not like, that's just the answer. And she talked about her experience and why that was, and I think that's fantastic. And so I love The complexity of it all. 

[Bonni Goodwin]
Yes, Complexity is a very good word. I just think it takes a lifetime for those of us who don't have the lived experience, it takes a lifetime of listening and humbly asking questions and putting ourselves in those situations where we can hear all the different perspectives and feelings that go along with it. And then implications for what that means for human life. Um, so I am just so grateful Sierra is filling up your chat with, um, with the websites, the links, and also, again, that Adoptee Manifesto. Um, it's, uh, Angela's, uh, been kind enough to give us all 20% off, um, getting that Adoptee Manifesto. So super grateful for that. Also, wanted to, before we've just got a couple minutes, and to wrap up here, I mentioned that Angela's coming to Oklahoma in September, um, September 11th, the evening of that night. Um, we will have an adoptee event, adoptees only invited to come and do, uh, watch 'Closure', the documentary of, um, Angela's story and watch it with her, and then be able to have a conversation. She's gonna be there, just have conversation with the adoptees. We're going all the way down to age 14 that night. So 14 and above all the way up to, um, 75. Uh, come and just join, watch that and talk to Angela. At the same time that night, we're gonna host a virtual event for adoptive parents. So if you have a 14, 15, 16-year-old and you're gonna drop them off at this adoptee event with Angela, then we would love for you to hop on a zoom, um, event with us and hopefully some other adoptive parents who are going to have a conversation about how important it is to, to have adoptee centric, um, opportunities for your, um, adopted kiddo to be able to have these conversations. Then, so that's happening that night, the next day on September 12th. For those of, uh, you on here who are professionals, we have the afternoon of September 12th, um, from two to 4:00 PM we're going downtown to this place called the Credit Union House, a random venue. It looks really nice. And Angela is going to facilitate an a, a panel of adoptees to have more of this conversation, um, to support our child welfare and mental health professionals, um, in understanding and go in in depth on this last thing. Also, like I said, we're, we're keeping her busy that morning. For any of you who are, um, in the Norman area, especially any OU students or faculty. 
We have, we'll have a conversation similar to this, but have an Angela in person where we're, we're just having, gonna, gonna have an informal conversation, open up to some questions and, uh, at Zara Hall on Norman campus that morning from 10 30 to noon. So put it on your calendars. Uh, Sierra, thank you for putting all the flyers with the detail information into the chat as well. But September 11th and 12th, we are so grateful, so excited to have, uh, Angela with us. And I cannot thank you enough, Angela, for spending your time sharing your, your story and your heart with us. Um, I know it's been, it's, it's been a great conversation. I really appreciate, 

[Angela Tucker]
I've loved it. I can't wait to meet everybody, adoptees in the audience, reach out to me, especially about the adoptee only event and perhaps the panel. Um, you can find me on Instagram @Angieadoptee or, um, wherever. I'm, I'm everywhere. But yeah, I can't wait to come, come meet everyone in person.

[Bonni Goodwin]
So grateful. Thank you. We hope that you have a wonderful rest of your day guys. Reach out to us for any, any support. We will get you connected. Bye-Bye

[Angela Tucker]
Bye.

59:54 --> 1:00:18 Silence - Contains CE Slides with the following information:
LOGO in upper left corner: Anne & Henry Zarrow School of Social Work. Continuing Education - The University of Oklahoma

Virtual CE From an Adoptee's View. Tuesday, June 25th 2024

Slide 1: Continuing Education Certificates CE Database https://bit.ly/3JE3J2o
Slide 2: Todays Session Will Be Recorded Resource Database: https://bit.ly//3WgSEf9
Slide 3: Links & Information will be provided in an post-event follow-up email.