BONNI GOODWIN: There we go. All right, Carlie, do you have the video queued up to welcome everyone? CARLIE VAN WOERKOM: Thank you all for being here today. We are. We're so excited to hear from Dr. Bonni Goodwin and John Bracken and their discussion about the positive impact that additional adoption training has had on their practice. I'm going to share a quick video with you. [VIDEO] VAN WOERKOM: This lunch and learn is being brought to you by a collaboration between Oklahoma Human Services, University of Oklahoma Anne and Henry Zarrow School of Social Work, and the Oklahoma Adoption Competency Network. We appreciate everyone joining during your lunch or noon hour. We want to get started so we can make sure to respect everyone's time and the great information being discussed today. First, let us go over a few housekeeping things for our time together this afternoon. We are recording this meeting. By participating, you are giving your consent to be recorded. Help us reduce distractions so we can all focus and participate. We have muted everyone to make it possible for everyone to hear the speakers. We want you to express your thoughts and questions. Please utilize the chat for this purpose. We will monitor the chat and questions will be touched upon during our Q&A time, during the last 15 minutes of the webinar. We want to see you. So if you are willing and you can, please turn on your video. If you are unable, that is fine also. To receive information about other posted option events. Please list your name and email in the chat and we will make sure to add you to our contact list. Remember confidentiality. It is vital that we protect confidential information so we will not share specifics like names or details about adoption cases, adults or children. If you are a foster parent attending this training, you will receive one hour of training credits towards the 12 hours of in-service training that you need each year. These trainings are not yet available as CEU credits for professionals. However, you may submit this certificate to your agency and request training credit per your agency's policies. Please indicate in the chat if you would like to receive a Certificate of Attendance and Participation. Thank you again for being with us today and we hope you enjoy this presentation. [VIDEO ENDS] GOODWIN: All right. Thank you. Thank you Carlie. Welcome everyone. I am super excited. Hello, John. I'm glad you're here. JOHN BRACKEN: Hello there. Good to be here. GOODWIN: Welcome. Welcome. BRACKEN: I had challenges joining. We don't use Zoom a lot in the department. So, I got here. GOODWIN: I'm so glad you're here. Because today, John and I are going to have a fun conversation. I'm going to start with just a quick overview and summary of what adoption competent mental health is. For our professionals, specifically today, we'll be talking about mental health professionals. Because, I am an LCSW, and John is on our mental health consultant team. And are you what are you what are your credentials, John? BRACKEN: I'm an LPC. GOODWIN: LPC, so a licensed professional counselor. Fantastic. So John and I, after we do a quick overview of, adoption competent mental health, then, we will be having a good conversation about the impact on our practice, how the trainings that I'll share with you, how they've impacted and changed the way that we approach practice in mental health. And also for all of you who are parents on here with us, I really am excited for you to be a part of this conversation as well. To hear that this exists, that adoption competency, the trainings available in Oklahoma for, providers who are serving you and your, your children. These trainings are free and available. So, something we'll talk a little bit also about, how you, what questions you can ask providers that you're seeking, if they understand adoption to a deep degree and, and also be able to share with them that there are some trainings available if they would like more information. So to, to start off, I am going to share just a brief video that, well, let me give a little background. Adoption competent mental health is something that was identified by, in the research, and post adoption support with adoptive parents and adoptees. What it is, is it's one, it's found to be one of the greatest unmet needs of, this population. So adoptive families also, as we have, have developed understanding and definition and training around what competency areas need to be understood to serve our adopted kiddos. It actually has, had quite a bit of expansion into foster care as well. So foster care and adoption and you'll hear a little bit of mention of that in this quick video that I'll share with you. But the definition of what does it mean to be adoption competent? What are the things that need to be known by professionals and mental health professionals who are serving the foster and adopted kiddos? That has really gone through quite a process of experts and those with lived experience across the nation. To, to give their input of what is it that, needs to be understood to a deeper degree? I think the things that are pretty obvious that that we have a good understanding that is important, to have good, good awareness and also strategies of how to, work with our trauma, the impact of trauma and loss. But also for some of the complexities of loss within adoption and foster care, ambiguous loss, layers of loss, how the grieving process is played out in a child's life, as they're growing up and also into adulthood. Another aspect of competency is understanding attachment. The, the breaking, the wounding of attachment, attached relationships. And then also, some strategies to help build new attachment meaningful relationships. Another piece is the cultural differences. So, specific some to our transracially adopted, adoptees. But then also when you talk when I've talked to adoptees, they share even just how one home is different than another home. There's a whole, there's layers to culture as well. So a lot of, adoptees that I've spoken with over, time have shared with me that when they first move into the, the home that is their new foster home, or their new adoptive home, they feel a sense of culture shock. So because it's a different way of doing life in that home. So how does that impact our adoptees? How can adoptive parents understand that, foster parents understand that, and support kids, in that whole process? And there's a whole lot more. So those are kind of our top four that we often talk about. But, but adoption competency, is, is having a good understanding of those things. But then also again, strategies and tools of how to how to support families and all of those processes. So let me play this video for you that will, kind of give a little bit more background specifically to one of the, One of the trainings that has been developed. Hold on one second. There it is. What do you guys see on the screen? Are you seeing my, are you seeing the National adoption competency training? BRACKEN: Yes. GOODWIN: Okay, perfect. Here we go. [VIDEO: NTI Adoption Competency Training for Mental Health Professionals] NARRATOR: And support and address their common -- [MUSIC] NARRATOR: Research tells us that adoptive families access mental health services at three times the rate of families formed by birth. International adoptees are referred to mental health services twice as often compared to non-adopted children. The American Academy of Pediatrics, Healthy Foster Care American Initiative identifies mental and behavioral health as the greatest unmet health need for children and teens in foster care, yet few mental health professionals receive graduate school training that specifically addresses the challenges and complex needs that many of these families have. NTI training for Mental Health Professionals is designed to prepare clinicians working with youth and their adoptive or guardianship families to effectively support and address their complex mental health challenges. Let's hear from parent Debbie Schugg, discuss how different the experience was when she found a therapist who was adoption competent. DEBBIE SCHUGG (ADOPTIVE PARENT): To say it was like night and day is an understatement. We had a therapist who was an absolute godsend. She really understood all the nuances, all of the complexities, of adoption, of children growing up in a family they aren't born into. She had personal and professional experience in adoption, and so she really, really got it. And for starters, she included me in the therapy. So, we were in there together and she was helping to kind of coach and facilitate me doing the healing with my kids because she recognized that I'm the one and my husband is the one who's living with them 24/7, and they're not going to just heal during that 45-50 minute session once a week. NARRATOR: The NTI curriculum is based on core competencies developed by national experts, with an average of over 30 years experience each in the fields of mental health and child welfare, and with lived experience, integrating current research and trends, best- and evidence- informed practice, family and youth input, and cultural considerations. This training offers a flexible learning environment using adaptive cutting edge technology, blending these competencies with best practices and adult learning. [Clips of activities and content from course work] NARRATOR: The journey from pre- to post- test is an interactive experience, including interviews with adoption experts and people with lived experience, downloadable content, opportunities for reflection, with a wide range of resources and practical tools for immediate use in your practice. You may be thinking... SPEAKER 1: What is the benefit to me for taking this training? SPEAKER 2: Is this worth my already limited time? SPEAKER 3: I'm an experienced clinician. What will I learn? PENNY ZIMMERMAN (LCSW-C, ACC, Adoption Competent Therapist): You know, when I was in school and my training around oppositional behavior was very much, like, that the child was being oppositional on purpose, or that they were being manipulative, and that was a negative connotation. But in working with adopted children, I now know that opposition is, a mask for vulnerability. And that if it is manipulative, it's actually adaptive because this is how they learn to survive. This is how they learn to get their needs met. And so when we look at the behavior in that way, you can see the difference in treatment approach. Right? So we're going to be looking at what's under that. What how can we meet that need in a more adaptive way, so that the need for opposition decreases. NARRATOR: The benefit of participating in this training pilot is threefold. The first is that you will receive for successful completion of the training, and additional CEUs for coaching sessions in which you participate. This is all provided at no cost to you. More importantly, whether you are a seasoned clinician or new to the field, NTI will provide you with a fresh perspective, a repertoire of skills and strategies to enhance your work with adoptive and guardianship children and their families, including new frameworks for clinical assessment and treatment planning, therapeutic tools and language that put voice to children's loss and grief experiences, models and techniques of attachment based and trauma-informed clinical work, therapeutic parenting strategies, strategies that promote healthy identity formation and address issues of race, culture, and diversity, and specific clinical tasks to support families through the developmental phases of the adoption lifecycle. Lastly, by participating in NTI, you will join a national network of adoption competent therapists to more effectively meet the needs of children, youth, and their adoptive or guardianship families. We hope that you will take advantage of this opportunity to broaden your knowledge and expand your clinical expertise. [Card: The National Adoption competency Mental Health Training Initiative (NTI) is a five year, federally funded cooperative agreement from the Children's Bureau awarded to the Center for Adoption Support and Education (C.A.S.E.) This training initiative is to build the adoption competent mental health capacity of child welfare professionals and mental health practitioners. NTI provides the casework and clinical practices that address the complex mental health needs of children, youth and their families moving towards or having achieved permanency through adoption and guardianship] [VIDEO ENDS] GOODWIN: Okay, so NTI is one of the trainings that you saw, is free. It was developed by a federal initiative about seven years ago, and it is still available through, through adoptionsupport.org. You can find NTI, how to sign up for that if, I don't know, someone, Lacey, would be willing to put that link into the chat. I'd appreciate it. That'd be great. So it is a wonderful training. And it is something that I have, I, to tell a little bit about where I've been, I have been doing social work with children and families for over 20 years, and have done specific clinical work with, foster and adoptive population for about six of the years. Those before I went back to school, and started, began, working at the University of Oklahoma. And so I learned about all of this in my own journey to try to understand what are the things that I need to know, and how can I build a team that is very specialized, in understanding some of the complexities and unique characteristics of serving our foster and adopt population. And so it was right around the exact time where this training was being developed and, unleashed out into the United States for professionals of child welfare and mental health to be able to access the training. So I'm, grateful for the timing of, of being able to dig in and learn as this was being developed and piloted. And the, the significant impact, I think, I have felt, is how it just continues to, the complexity, I've been doing and learning and teaching and training in adoption competent mental health now for 7 to 8 years. And it's just to me, I'm learning that it's, it's a really important framework and understanding. And let me show this slide. [Slide: Domains of Adoption Competency A circle with 18 equal sections, each representing one of the following areas: 1. Theoretical/Philosophical Framework 2. The Therapeutic Approach 3. History of Adoption & Adoption Process 4. Planning & Preparing for Adoption 5. Legal Issues in Adoption 6. Differences Between Adoption & Family of Origin 7. Clinical Issues 8. Impact of Genetics & Past Experiences 9. Trauma & Brain Neurobiology 10. Different Types of Adoptive Families 11. Adoptive Family Formation, Integration, & Development Stages 12. Cultural Issues 13. Needs of Birth Family Members 14. Openness in Adoption 15. Race & Ethnicity 16. Therapeutic Modalities/Techniques 17. Community & Cross Systems Work 18. Ethical Practice] GOODWIN: So the competency areas in the definition, they identified 18 domains of, of really unique aspects of working with foster and adopt kiddos and families that need to have good specific understanding. So this this pie chart in the middle has 18 pieces to the pie. And really how I've come to understand it and how I continue to talk about it is, it's a lens. You can see in the middle of the lens. It's like all of those pie pieces were just twisted and put together. And so, and a lens is something that you look through. So it's a, it's an understanding. It's very broad. It's very comprehensive. But when I am talking or listening to an adoptive parent or an adoptee talking about some of the challenges that they're facing, I have all of these 18 competency areas in my mind. And so I'm thinking, what age is the child? That's connected to development, self-identity formation, self-awareness. I'm also thinking about how was this child adopted? Were they adopted Internationally? Domestically? Through Child Welfare? Was it a transracial adoption? Right? So you've got so many questions and perspectives in your mind when you're listening at intake. So I think that's one of the most significant impacts for me is how learning all of these concepts and this framework has really, guided my, my perception whenever I am first starting to listen to, what a family and a child are starting to, express about how they are, what they're dealing with. So, I've invited my friend John. To come share also his experience, and his journey with adoption competency as well. And, how that has impacted. So, so, John, if you wouldn't mind just kind of introducing yourself and sharing with us, your background and kind of what you have been have been doing, in your career. And also how long, had you been practicing prior to hearing about adoption competent mental health? BRACKEN: Thanks so much, Dr. Goodwin. So, it's a pleasure to be with you guys today. I, you maybe you can't see, but I've got a lot of gray hair, so I've been in the field for quite a while, but my, journey has wandered around some. I, I did start out, in mental health, actually, Red Rock Mental Health Center, way back when it was just a tiny little organization, out of graduate school. And so, and, and give you some perspective as to how how, long the journey has been. When I came out of school, I don't even think attachment theory was a thing. I think there was some beginning discussions around it, but then. And then even systems therapy, you know, the people I learned about was Virginia Satir and Jay Haley and some of the grandfathers of, of family systems work. So, so the point being that, a lot of the work that's happened has occurred really, as, as you suggested, Bonni, this, a lot of this stuff is fairly new. Really new. GOODWIN: Yeah. BRACKEN: Around even attachment. When we look at attachment and how far that's come. So and then brain science and how trauma affects the brain. So, so anyway, so I was in mental health for a while, and then I ended up in, believe it or not, with the Department of Corrections. Mainly because I, I just gotten married and had a couple of kids and they doubled my salary. So it's like, okay, we'll try that. And, and so during my journey, with them, I actually got out of, I kept my license, but I got out of direct, work, with clients. So, and then, spent some time with a few youth services. My heart has always been working with youth, and I saw what happened when we didn't intervene with youth. They, you know, these kids ended up in prison. It was really a tragedy. So. So I ended up back in youth work, but mainly in administrative roles. I did some clinical supervision and that was always such a delight. I'm sure you find that to be the same way, Bonni is, is, that was really a fun part of the job. So anyway. And so, I did that for a while and then just decided to, you know, the, as an executive director of fundraising and, and, managing boards of directors and that kind of thing, was, was, was a it's always a challenge. But so my heart was drawn back to getting back into clinical work. And so, believe it or not, that has only been about five years ago that I got back more back into the clinical work. And so, man, I was I was like, I was, you know, I kept up with the field, but I really had to dive in and learn a lot. And so that's where, I started to really, on my journey, in terms of learning about trauma and attachment and brain science. And, and, my current position. I'm a Mental Health Consultant with the Oklahoma Department of Mental Health, and in that capacity, I work with DHS, and families, too, that are involved in the system. And, and these are families that'll have mental health concerns, that have substance use concerns, domestic violence concerns. So, so we really are, kind of the mental health piece to help the, the workers are so overwhelmed with what they're doing and they're not certainly experts in mental health. So, so it's been such a neat thing for me because it really does force me to learn a lot about a lot of different things, in terms of how we I can provide advice to kids, to the families, and to the workers. So, so in that journey I've been doing this for, it's almost two years now. My supervisor had, I think, connected with you, Bonni, in terms of, of, the whole work around adoption. So in my work, I was seeing, I was part of what they call adoption disclosure meetings, which, if we have some adoptive, adoptive families on, on this zoom, you know, that that's the meeting you have with DHS when you're first considering adopting a child. And, and that was that was such a delight because there's so much hope and there's so much love and there's, there's just so much good feelings around that whole process of adopting a child. And so I kind of saw that end of things. But unfortunately, I also was exposed to situations where the adoption was really beginning to fall apart and these families were in crisis. They were really considering giving up on the child. And maybe that's too strong a word, but their, their experience had been, really not good, and they were really desperate. And so on the other end of the continuum was families that were really kind of falling apart. And so it was it was curious to me, what happened? Where, where did that, how did the train get off the track? What kind of services had they accessed? You know, what can we do, to really impact this? And to help foster families and, and adoptive families. So, so when Fallon said, would you guys like to go through this training? Man, I jumped on that training because I thought, I really need to know more. You know, I, I'd like to think I was a little bit, you know, educated regarding adoption but, but I think I also had this notion that, you know, adoption is not that much different than growing up in a family of origin and that the children have happy feelings and, and, you know, this whole concept that love's enough, and that, and that getting a child in a stable family, a loving family was enough to heal wounds. It certainly helps, no question about that. But there's so much dynamics around what's going on with that family. And with that child, that I just, it just seemed to me that I had a whole lot to learn and found out that I really did. So. So, I went through the NTI training, and had the pleasure of really getting to work with Dr. Goodwin. And I don't know, she wouldn't say this, but I'll say it. We are, I think as in, as a state, we are kind of leading the nation in terms of adoption and, and, and really digging into the subject and really wanting to know more. And Bonni has led those efforts, this whole adoption competency network and drawing people in, professionals and adoptive families and foster families, this is cutting edge stuff. So you guys are right at the forefront. So, so I had the pleasure going through that training and, consulting and with Dr. Goodwin and spending time with her and discussing, what we were learning. So, so I certainly would, for any clinicians on the line here, I think, the training is invaluable. It is a commitment. I need to tell you that. It is a commitment, both from the standpoint of going through the training, but I also think what's important is that you get the consultation that you would need. So, anyway, so those are my thoughts to kind of answer the question about my journey. GOODWIN: Thank you John. Yes. Gosh, there's so many things that you said. Just the, the ongoing development of knowledge. I think is one that's so critical with any professional to understand that there's always more to learn. And, and that's kind of what I was trying to say of like, I've, I've understood the conceptualization and the definition of adoption competency, but it continues to grow. Like there's more and more that we're learning. And, and developing new skills and new strategies of how to best support our, our adoptees and our and our families in the process. Because of that, it's not like I think so many times our systems look at adoption is kind of the goal, right? Either exiting foster care through reunification or adoption, one or the other. The child is now in permanency in a permanent home. And so yay, we've accomplished. But, but there's a lot that happens in the meantime, right? It's the for me, it's really the beginning of the journey from there. And there's beautiful, wonderful things, that happen. And then there's some challenging things. And because of what we've understood about the impact of trauma, the impact of loss, what does it mean to grow up with, with all of this story as a part of your journey and who you are? You know, so there's just so many aspects that we're still continuing to learn about. So I'm glad you mentioned the Oklahoma Adoption Competency Network, which is a part of what these Lunch and Learns are about. And that's the goal, is to be able to connect people together as we continue both professionals being able to have this, community where you can consult and have support. And when you come to this place where you're like, I don't know what else to do. What other resources do we have out there? There's a place to ask and to seek information and connection, but also pulling in our adoptive parents and our adoptees because we have so much to learn from that voice of lived experience. That's where all this has come from, is, is the awareness because of adoptees saying, "Hey, you know what actually it was really hard and I didn't have much support. And I would really like more." So that is the heart and the goal behind these Lunch and Learns and the network that we're, that we are building over time. So, John, the next question I would love to ask you is when you completed NTI. I know it's a lot. It's a lot of information. It is a big commitment. It takes some time. But I do think it is, worthwhile. What do you think are some of your biggest takeaways? BRACKEN: Well, you know, some of the things that really come to mind for me was, the, the, the whole, we called it, the seven core issues of adoption and, that, you know, the, you mentioned the issue of loss and ambiguous loss and, it, it really struck in my mind the fact that that no adoption occurs, unless there's a loss and that that loss, even if it's a baby, right? People say, well, we were adopted as a baby, you know, we, that we should be okay because we've been in a loving home for all these years. And, and so that the concept of loss and the, the, the depth of that loss in the fact it is kind of ambiguous because that family may still very well be around and you're not living with them. And so that really struck me. And, and the with that loss comes grief. And that grieving can occur at any point and sometimes can be triggered, within, with events that we're not even as adoptive parents, we don't really understand. So, and, and with that also comes grief, rejection. You know, what was we got to remember that children are egocentric. So, they don't, regardless of their birth family and their, their family of origin and what may have happened, they don't view that, that they were adopted because, a failing with a parent, a biological parent or whatever. "There was something wrong with me. There's something there's got to be something intrinsically." And that's the thing that's really struck me is, yeah, you know, it's, it's, "there's something intrinsically wrong with me. I'm a bad person coming from a bad family." And, you know, there's that sense of hopeless, you know, "I'm a hopeless cause" or whatever. And we see this in the, in the kids that are, that are, that are expressing that through their behaviors. Right? And, you know, hospitalizations and, and medications and, and all those things that come out of that, deep loss and grief. So that that certainly was something that that I, you know, I knew there was loss, but I just didn't understand the depth of that and how, how it affects, children. The other thing that was fascinating to me is, the whole, there are certain ages, Bonni and I, you can certainly speak to this better than I can, but there's certain ages in which, the adoptive families, kids ages, where adoptive families start to really struggle. GOODWIN: Yeah. BRACKEN: And one of those ages is around age 12 and 13, maybe. And. And why is that? Well, if we know anything about child development, that's when, when kids are really starting to develop their identity. Who am I and what is my purpose? And so for those of us that we're, we're blessed with a family of origin and have raised with the family of origin, that question is complex enough even in that circumstances. But when, I was when I'm not with my family of origin, and now I have an adoptive family, regardless of how long I've lived there, that question is not, not easily answered. And unless they have some information around who my birth family, and, and can explore that a little bit, that question is really hard to answer. And so they really struggling again, kids are going to, you know, tell families, let's, let's, let's try to focus on what does this child need from us rather than the behaviors we have a tendency to focus on the behaviors because that's what's in our face. Right? And that's the thing they're getting kicked out of school and those kind of things. So, so that whole issue of identity and who am I? I learned about Life Books and, and how those can be really healing for, well, can be healing for any child, but certainly a child from, that's an adopted child. Can those kind of things. So that was but that was really, impactful for me in terms of that. And so and the other thing that, stands out to me, Bonni, is, is, I had a bias, around how could an adoptive parent give up on a child? Okay? You know how as, as a, as a parent, you know, and, and how, on any child particularly, you know, a child has been adopted and now they want to they want to they want to give them back to the state. And so, how do we get to that place? And, and so and I have sat in and I know you have too, Dr. Goodwin, on a lot of meetings and sitting with those families and just being with them and hearing their story really has touched me in a way that I can't, It's really hard for me to describe in terms of the pain, the agony, the ambivalence. And when you hear their stories of where they've been, you wonder yourself, I don't know how they survived this long. Really? Right? And unfortunately, what's happened and this is why I'm part of this movement, is, unfortunately, they haven't really got the kind of treatment that, that they need. They haven't got adoption competent treatment. GOODWIN: Yeah. BRACKEN: And, and again, I'm not beating up on therapists or whatever. You don't know what you don't know, right? GOODWIN: Right. BRACKEN: And so if you're seeing an adoptive kid as a therapist and you're not even talking about the adoption, that's a problem. GOODWIN: Right. BRACKEN: And, and I, we know therapists that have done that because they don't know. I mean, again, we have some thoughts about adoption that are that are antiquated. So anyway, those are Bonni, Those are some things that I mean, there's a whole lot I could go on and on about, that I learned. But those are some things that stood out to me. Yeah. GOODWIN: So good John. Thank you. I, man, you did say so much and and, that concept, I think. What I've heard the most from a lot of adoptive parents in whenever they have expressed either frustration or just a lack of help, is a kind of a that's, next sentence is, "Far too often I've been blamed for what is happening with my child, and, and I've only done the best that I could that I've, I've used every tool that I have in my tool belt." And really, it's, it's a different thing when you start listening to the specifics of what has been tried, what have they, you know, like, and then also, when you start hearing feedback from other professionals that say things like, well, you know, I think it's best for you to give the child back to the, to the state because then they'll be able to access services that you don't have access to, which is not necessarily the truth. Right? So there's, there's a lot of complexities with post adoption support and understanding, that, that go all the way up to the systems level. And I think another thing you mentioned was, you know, that if you're seeing a child who has been adopted, who or who has experienced foster care, and you're not talking about that, in the therapeutic process, that's a that's a gap, that's a problem. But I'd also add to that that if you are only meeting with that child individually, continually, without, connecting to and including parents and siblings, and the family and even in times where there's this amazing opportunity for some type of openness with bio family, you know, including them in some of that mental health treatment. And, you know, the process, the journey of that is also a really critical piece, to doing some really good, competent work with this, with our kids from foster care and adoption. And then and then I have to go back to the very beginning when you talked about loss and the grief. Because I think another key piece, how it's impacted me so much and continually is when you when you have that in your lens and you're looking at a child's expressions, their behavior, especially aggression, frustration, you know, maybe anger, resentment. You're not my real mom. You're not my real parents or something like that. And you look at it through the lens of grieving, there's a completely different perspective than, than when we look at it purely through behavior. Because when we're looking through behavior, we see defiance, aggression, violence, you know, those type of things. But when we're looking through the lens of grief, we see unresolved, unrecognized, ambiguous, and confusing and just the whole part of grief that includes anger. Anger is actually a part of the grieving process, right? And in fact, so many of the kids that I talk to, adoptees, don't even express anger. They say, "I feel rage." And to me, the difference between anger and rage is confusion and maybe fear underneath all of that, that connects with all the other aspects of a traumatic history. BRACKEN: Right. GOODWIN: So, so there's it's big, it's big, and it's, significant when we're looking at how many mental health diagnoses get attached to our kids due to these behaviors, that do, are, you know, criteria. I'm not saying it's the wrong diagnoses all the time, but, but do we understand the root of why this is what we're seeing? And so because we have to understand the root to then be able to understand healing right? BRACKEN: Right. Absolutely. Yeah. Then, you know, the, the, the whole issue of attachment here and, and, and working on that in that relationship, I think is, is, you know, is really critical and, and is, is so difficult because really for young people that have been removed from their birth family, been in numerous foster homes, and then are adopted, and we wonder why they're not automatically attaching to people. Right? And so as a parent, I mean that, that is hard work. And, and in terms of really trying to understand their experience and, why would it? Why would a young person attach to us even if we've adopted them? They've been hurt so many times. And so, yeah, I think we have to come to the realization that that, that is just a real challenge, and it will probably be a challenge throughout the relationship. But if we don't talk about it and deal with it and, and try to do some healing, we're, we're missing the boat. GOODWIN: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. So you've mentioned a lot of things, and this question might feel a little redundant, but I'm going to go ahead and throw it out there to see if you have any different thoughts. But why do you feel that doing a training and you even mentioned like the there's some consulting coaching, that I can that I do with different groups of mental health professionals going through the training. Why do you think that's important? BRACKEN: Well, I think, again, I've shared some of my, you know, some of my biases coming in to the whole process. And I think it's as therapists, we really have to know. I mean, it is hard when kids are dysregulated and having some real challenges, to look beyond that and see the, the hurt child in there and, and not focus so much on the behavior. So and then and then viewing parents as you recommend, you hit the nail on the head that somehow in those meetings where things are not going well and somehow you're a bad parent and this is a bad kid. Now, we don't say that. Right? But, but as a parent, sometimes we might feel that way. And, and we've really got to work on that, and I think we have to. And the only way I know to do that is to is to be present and to listen and to try to understand what that experience might, might be like. And, and so this training really helped me to take a step back and not only focus on what's going on here dynamically, but what's going on with me, what when I when I'm working with these families, what's setting, what things are being set off with me? And, and, that is to me is really critical is, is, you know, the self-awareness piece. GOODWIN: Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. I think self-awareness is probably one of the biggest keys, even awareness of the language that we use when we're talking about, like you said, "bad kids," "bad parents," but also some of the things that are a little more mercurial, like, "real parents," or BRACKEN: Right. GOODWIN: "Put up for adoption." BRACKEN: Adoption. GOODWIN: Or "given up for adoption." Right? Like even the words that we use and the impact of how those words feel, to an adopted person, when you have conceptualized that as a part of your identity and who you are. "Given up" is a different kind of connotation then, "being placed for," you know. BRACKEN: Right. GOODWIN: Just the, just the language matters. BRACKEN: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. GOODWIN: Being put up for adoption is actually, this is something I think is so important for people to understand that that goes all the way back. One of those domains, those 18 domains, is understanding the history of adoption. And in the U.S. as well as the world, because we've done this type of thing for a long time, and we've not always done it well. In fact, we did it quite awful in the past. And put up for adoption is connected to some of those things that we used to do back to colonial days, when there was, children in the large urban areas that did not have, maybe parents were working constantly, so they were running the streets. So they didn't have, constant supervision or parents were not there, because of early death, or war or, you know, something like that. And so the children were loaded up on trains and shipped across the continent. It's called the orphan trains. And, then were put up on train platforms or put up on stages, for parents, potential adoptive parents to make decisions, like bidding, almost, on which children they were going to take. And sometimes there were good stories we would hear of those children being adopted and loved into a new family. But a lot of what we heard about that situation was those kids became child labor, not a loved member of the family. And so even utilizing that terminology, which you still hear quite a bit, being put up for adoption, you know, those things, it's important. It's important to understand words matter and what that then, how it impacts those who are experiencing that journey in their life for a lifelong, journey, you know, experience. BRACKEN: Absolutely. You bet. GOODWIN: So, John, thank you so much. We are actually at about a quarter 'til, so I'd love to, open it up to anybody here who's on the call with us. If you have any questions or if you have any just comments that you thought of while you were listening to John and I discuss adoption competent mental health. I do see that, I don't know if it's "Jean" or "Jeanie", but you mentioned on chat that you would love more training specifically kids with, adopting kids with mental health issues. I'm wondering if you are thinking, are you a parent who is seeking training for parents, if you're still on here? Yeah, there you are. That is I'll just if you're a, if you're a professional, then NTI is the training for adoption competency. There's also another one that's available in Oklahoma that's more in-depth. And there is a cost involved. And you but you go in person and do some consultation and that's called TAC, T-A-C, Training in Adoption Competency. We have different cohorts starting at different times. So you can feel free to reach out to us if you have any questions about that. But for parents, that's really the kind of the heart of what these Lunch and Learns are intending to offer to parents is this ongoing, opportunity to sign on during your lunch hour and just hear more in-depth discussion and content about all different types of things that are involved, in the adoption and foster care world. We've got, I think, guys, I think we have like 12 to 15 Lunch and Learns that are recorded and available on our YouTube channel now. It covers all of the things we've talked about with, there's loss and grief with specific strategies of how to walk alongside children who are processing their grief. Talked about, we've got a two-part series about the impact of trauma on the brain. Katie Stewart on here has, provided some really great strategies. And the part two of how then to support kids. Lacey on here has given many different, wonderful Lunch and Learns about IEPs at school, psych evaluations. I mean, just all kinds of information. We do have one to, that talks, Dr. Sarah Coffey, who is a clinical psychiatrist on our clinical team here at, Child Welfare in Oklahoma, who gave a presentation about medication management. So dealing with some of those psychotropic medications, understanding the goal and kind of how a psychiatrist thinks through, what medications would be, helpful and also how to manage those. So there's a whole host of information on Lunch and Learns. And I see Lacey, thank you, put the YouTube link to subscribe to our YouTube channel right there in the chat. And then on, above and beyond that, we are working hard to continue to develop more, support and training for parents in, in Oklahoma, as well as opportunities to connect with each other, for parents and adoptees. So especially our adolescents and our young adult adoptees, have really let us know that they would love to have opportunities to connect with, with each other and just have someone who knows what they've gone through. So, we're developing quite a bit, of some good support, trying to hit all levels of support for, for this for adopted people as well as adoptive families. So, let us know if there is anything else that you are thinking of that we have not yet begun working on. We've got some things in the works, things that, ways that we might be able to support you in even better ways. I'm going to put my email in the chat. Feel free to reach out to me. My, specific, work with Child Welfare and Post Adoption is the Statewide Coordinator of Adoption Preservation Services. So that's, that's what I'm here for is to continue to listen to you, let us know what gaps there are and how we might be able to fill those or provide an opportunity or empower you to fill them, starting your own support group or something like that. So, John, I cannot thank you enough for joining us and having a great conversation. We always have a great conversation. BRACKEN: Yes. It is, it is an absolute pleasure, to work with you, Bonni. And just one of the things so you have, if folks are, if we have some families that are looking for, or there's questions they need, they might want to ask for, around adoption competency in the therapist that they're looking at. And, and I know if you have, you're beginning to build a list of therapists that are adoption competent. So you want to speak to that really quickly before we jump off here? GOODWIN: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Thank you John. So yes, we do have, there's some directories of those in Oklahoma who have completed NTI. Once they complete that full training, then they're able to enter their information into a national directory. So we know that there's that good overview and comprehensive training that they've completed. And then TAC as well. We have a directory of TAC completed therapists who not only have NTI but have done some really in-depth work. That is actually kind of more like a certification training. So, yeah, if you're looking for a good provider available to you in your area, reach out to us. We are still building that. So it's limited, especially now with the mental health crisis on top of it where, but we would love to, get you connected with some competent providers. And additionally, if there's, we have, Katie and Lacey, are two of our clinical social workers in the post-adoption who are doing some more clinical work with our families directly, specific to some of this post-adopt challenge and struggle. So, we can also, on our team, work with you in a more direct service, clinical way. So if there's, it's the goal is for it to be more short-term, so we can bridge and find somebody for you who's local to you so you can continue to work with them as needed. But if there's a long waiting list of somebody near you, we would be more than willing to bridge that and fill that gap and do some more clinical work with you. So let us, let us know. Reach out to me, reach out to the team. Yeah. Thank you, John, for bringing that up. All right. Thank you guys so much. We appreciate you hopping on and I hope you have a fun and safe evening. BRACKEN: Happy Halloween. GOODWIN: Bye bye.